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Metro NY Geocaching Society • View topic - Archivals vs. Retractions

Archivals vs. Retractions

General conversation related to Geocaching

Moderator: addisonbr

Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby addisonbr » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:19 am

I'm noticing these days that when there is a problem with a cache and groundspeak guidelines, NY Admin seems to be going a step beyond archiving and is retracting it or otherwise eliminating it from geocaching.com entirely. A few examples where I've seen this:

/ - two caches that were placed on DOT bridges, retracted entirely
- placed too close to an existing cache, retracted entirely

And this week:

- if I'm understanding it right, placed too close to an existing cache and retracted entirely

The main difference between a retraction and an archival seems to be that you can no longer access the cache page or any of the logs; you get the message "Sorry, you cannot view this cache listing until it has been published." or "You cannot see logs for unpublished listings." The finds still seem to exist in some way; of the four caches above I actually managed to find and log High in Morningside Park before it was retracted, and I'm still getting credit for the smiley.

Does anyone know if this is a new policy of groundspeak's in general to retract caches that turn out to violate the guidelines in some way, or just a style choice by NY Admin?
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby Child Of Atom » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:41 pm

Wasn't High in Morningside Park, (or whatever it was called) also retracted? Is Admin retracting them because they made an error in publishing them in the first place, not noticing the proximity issues? So rather than admitting a mistake they simply hide all evidence of it.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby gerkmax » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:27 pm

High in Morningside Park was active for about 2-3 days, I believe. I remember AugustorJr called me from the field, asking if there were any hints in the logs. When I went to look up the listing, it was gone.

That one was weird, because not only was the listing gone, but the CO's profile was gone as well. It reappeared about a week or so later.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby Harry Dolphin » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:13 pm

Hmm... That makes two caches I've found that have been retracted. Hey. I liked Shipping and Trucking! But, yes , it was 40' from another cache. I was very impressed with Red Hook!
From what little I've seen, retraction is used for severe infractions of guidelines, with no hope of being able to move it. The two on DOT bridges would be good examples. Sort of "We don't want anybody to know that we mistakenly published this cache". The other retracted cache that I found was in the wall of a crumbling, but protected historical building. A canal tender's house on the Morris Canal. It should never have been placed there, and there was no way to rework the cache. And there was no way for the reviewer to know this. Shipping and Trucking could easily have been reworked with no problem. The same with High in Morningside Park. Note: My brother was FTF on a cache that was retracted before he got home to log it. It was 1/4" from another cache. But, he agrees that the normal way to handle it would be to rework it, or archive it. Retraction should only be used for severe infractions.
I checked. I still have the smiley for Shipping and Trucking, but it has been retracted. The owner put a lot of work into that cache, and it was my favorite Brooklyn cache! With a little bit of work, he could rework it into a viable cache again.
I would have thought that the proper way way to handle a minor infration like that was to rework it or archive it. Retraction seems very severe.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby Tatanka49 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:05 am

I wonder if GC.com has created a monster with GCing. I'm sure the original founders had no idea that the hobby would take off as it did. And I'm sure that there are many cachers out there (probably all of us at some point) have pushed the envelope a bit and hoped that our hands would not be slapped. But some people I believe REALLY push that envelope...into school yards, railroad tracks, DOT bridges and so forth and have no guilt at all. I can see a warning or even an archive. But a retraction?

Maybe NY Admin is just too spread out. NY Admin covers everything from NYC to Buffalo. How can one person handle all of that? And he/she is so secretive about everything. When I was out in Indiana, there were a number of reviewers in a panel discussion and they were very open as to who they were. But they admitted that sometimes they get overwhelmed and ask for help--especially in areas they don't know. I think if NYAdmin was less secrative and reached outr for help occassionally, I think it would be a great asset to the hobby in general.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby gerkmax » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:08 am

I had a cache that was VERY close (about 20m) to a stage of another cache, but I received a warning and moved it.

Personally, from the tone and wording of some responses I've seen from the NY Admin, I'm almost positive it's more than there's one person handling the caches under that one screen name. In one e-mail, NY Admin was very helpful and cool. In another, curt and very "to the point". And in yet another, NY Admin didn't even understand that decimal version of coordinates even existed! ("What format is that? I've never seen that. You have to use..." and proceed to explain DD MMSSS coordinates.

Very weird if it's just one person. It'd make much more sense if it was multiple people covering all those caches and submissions.

Addison, how did you find out S&T was deleted because of the proximity to another cache? I know the owner of that other cache (Rock & Roll). Just wondering.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby buttaskotch » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:45 am

Weren't most of these Fats277 caches?
I believe he asked for the retractions, he was very upset with the methods some cachers went to, to notify NY Admin. I corresponded with him a few times after the incident and he was just disgusted. I can't blame him, though, I was equally disturbed by the lengths some cachers went to to discredit the caches.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby addisonbr » Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:01 am

Harry - am I reading that right? A quarter-inch away from another cache? Story please!

Gerk - I put Shipping & Trucking on my watchlist as a cache that I intend(ed) to get to somewhere along the way, and in NY Admin's recent disable log he or she or they said that there is still a "proximity issue".

buttaskotch - I believe the caches placed on bridges were, but not the others. My recollection is that NY Admin reported getting a private email inquiring about the placement - but I didn't realize the CO himself requested that the caches be retracted. That makes me feel better about it.
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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby halijusapa » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:02 pm

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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby Harry Dolphin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:59 pm

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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby halijusapa » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:21 pm

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Re: Archivals vs. Retractions

Postby gerkmax » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:42 pm

I have no problem with NY Admin (or at least the NY Admin who's been approving my caches), as he/she has been very helpful with issues regarding 2-3 of them, and damn quick with approving most of them. But that's just my gut feeling with the weird variety in the tone of some responses I, and a few other cachers, got from NY Admin.
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